Panty Peeping

The Red Sox come back from a 8-1 deficit in the 4th to win, but …

Mike:
Well, the Pats winning 3 Supah Bowls couldn't usurp the Red Sox as the most talked about sports team in the region, but looks like they finally found something that could.

 

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Bill:
Yeah, well, somehow I don't think the "all publicity is good publicity" conventional wisdom is going to play here.

 

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Mike:
Seriously. A more appropriate quote is this one from Joe Paterno: "Success without honor is an unseasoned dish; it will satisfy your hunger, but it won't taste good."

 

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Bill:
I'm not sure what is more fascinating, the cheating or the hubris. I mean they didn't even try to be surreptitious with it, did they?

 

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Mike:
Memo to Belichick: Spyware, hello!

 

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Bill:
So how big a hahd on do you think Belichick hatah Ron Borges has this morning?

 

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Mike:
Can you say "priapism"?

 

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Comments

[jamesfrmmaine]

"Win without honor" blah blah... I have seen countless posts on teh internets from self declared "Pats Fans" who say they feel dishonored etc.

Its all bullshit. All of the teams do this, the all steal signals, watch tape, employ lip readers etc.

I was listening to the 2 Live Stu's... sports talk and one of the host's Ryan Stuart(former LB for the Lions) was saying that this all a bunch of crap and its just hype because everyone wants an excuse as to why their team lost to the patriots the last 4 years. He said taping the signals wouldn't help anymore then any of the techniques they employ to try and steal signals and use intelligence etc.

If it had been the Browns nobody would have given a fuck.

Oh and I still love the fact the Most of the Pats success the past couple of seasons came from playing hard as a team and scrapping out tough wins.

[Bob]

Nice comeback last night. The watch-words at Pete's were "chip-chip-chip." We were behind so early, everyone knew if we got to the Rays pitiful bullpen, it'd get interesting. Just didn't know they'd average five runs an inning.

Re: the Pats. If stealing signs is so, so effective, why do the Pats ever lose? Why does a blitz ever succeed? Why isn't every defensive play figured out before it happens?

The only way I'll lose one second of sleep over this is if they suspend He-Who-Must-be-Named-Bill, or if they take away a first round pick.

Otherwise, feh.

[Youk Rules]

HB, I can't believe you pre-empted the Sox win to talk about the Patriots!

This was the most improbable win since Mother's Day, after which, they went 11-4.

Julio Lugo: "...we knew we was right back in it...we had the heart."

Come on, give the guys their due.

[buckner was framed]

Cris Crocker = priapism antidote

[h.b.]

Couple thoughts...

1) If it doesn't help, then why bother doing it?

2) Regarding "everybody does it" isn't that the same argument some use with steroids? Yet look how we've excoriated Giambi over that. I confess to being a hypocrite myself, but, you know... Pot meet kettle.

3) "If it had been the Browns nobody would have given a fuck." Agreed. But this isn't the Browns and now this will stick with the Patriots and tarnish their image. You can't wish it away. People already hated the Pats across the country and this will just give them more reason. It's is all bullshit, but bullshit has a way of becoming a whole lot more in the media and public opinion. Every win now will be questioned.

[h.b.]

Don't tell anyone, but I'm bored with the Red Sox right now. Shhhh...

[Bob]

// If it doesn't help, then why bother doing it?//

H.B., didn't say it didn't help (nice sentence structure, huh?).

Just saying it doesn't help that much.

If you listened to EEI this morning, you'd think the Pats had deciphered the genome.

No doubt it occasionally helps. I just don't think it's any kind of deciding factor.

Funny how Mangenious caught us at it, huh? Wonder how he had any inkling? Maybe because he was in charge of the operation with the Pats?

[buckner was framed]

Haven't been following the Pats thing all that closely, but the thing that keeps coming to me is: if they have the balls to do this out in the open when on enemy turf, can you imagine the shit they pull when at the Razor? Hidden cameras, spies disgused as season ticket holders (I'm looking at you, Bob), and who knows what else? I agree with hb- they must feel it's helping, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. Belichick's a very bright man. Just ask him.

[jamesfrmmaine]

h.b.

You make good points...

I just can't compare an assistant with a video camera to a ginormous linebacker that is completely ripped on steriods.(Merriman)

If the patriots are the only ones who try and steal signals why do coaches cover their mouths when they call signals against other teams?

I guess in the end I am not defending cheating... if that guy was breaking an NFL rule then the pats should be punished appropriately but I don't think it tarnishes anything.

Do you really believe that 3 super bowl rings in the last 6 years is because we have been VIDEO TAPING MOTHAFUCKERS ON THE SIDELINE?!?!?!?! sorry the stupidity of all of this makes my head want to explode.

So I guess the only reason we lost to the colts in the playoffs last year is because the stole our signals faster then we could steal theirs?

Is the reason that the Falcons have sucked the last 4 years with Vick is because their signals were stolen?

Seriously tarnish? It tarnishes nothing.

/end rant

[h.b.]

//Funny how Mangenious caught us at it, huh? Wonder how he had any inkling? Maybe because he was in charge of the operation with the Pats?//

EXACTLY! But that begs the question: given the animosity between the two coaches and two teams, didn't the Pats see this coming? That is stupid. Weakness. You never discount the capabilities of your enemies. Never.

Play to fucking win. If you're going to cheat, cheat like you fucking mean it and don't get caught.

I guess the Pats just aren't smart in that way. I mean didn't Harrison use his own name and go in person to buy the HGH?

[Bob]

Buck:

I know nothing...I see NOTHING.

But before the war I was the owner of the Schotze toy factory.

[Bob]

H.B., I had the camera hidden in my Red Sox tote bag. It's always worked before.

[Kaz]

This is a bunch of media fluff and bluster because Bill doesn't give pretty, fun interviews.

The camera guy was looking for native flora and fauna.

[h.b.]

Again, the tarnish thing doesn't make sense, but that's the way it'll play out.

Do you understand how much Belichik the Patriots are hated outside of New England? They are the Yankees of the NFL.

Even before this many, many people didn't respect the Patriots SB wins and thought they got lucky or the opponent just played poorly.

I know that doens't make any sense, but that is the way many anti-Pats people feel.

This is only going to increase that by a factor of 10.

[h.b.]

Isn't "media fluff" an oxymoron?

When isn't what the media pushes some sort of fluff?

[Victor Kiam]

This never would have happened when I was in charge...

[Jason O.]

I have the pleasure of knowing a man named John Norwig, the Steelers' head trainer.

He is universally liked/respected. I can not stress enough this man's sterling rep. around the NFL.

Two seasons ago, a Pats player goes down on the Pitt. sideline. "Wig" immediately jumps into action.

When Belichick arrives, he emphatically tells Norwig to "get the fuck away from my player."

All you need to know right there. Recent revelations re: proscribed spying are completely unsurprising.

[buckner was framed]

Yeah, Vic, that's 'cuz you were too f-ing cheap to buy a camera. YOU would have had one of those courtroom artists trying to steal signals... Third and long, as depicted by Jane Flavell Collins

[Bob]

//This is only going to increase that by a factor of 10.//

Good. Really. I relish it.

Football is so, so, so much of a frigging war (yes, I know, not really, but still). I have no problem doing whatever it takes to win. I have no problem with the vanquished hating us. I leave those games in a lather, no voice, physically exhausted beyond anything since two-a-days in high school. I'm useless at work on any given Monday. (Heh, good one, Bob.)

I expect my football team of choice to give it everything they've got. Because I sure as hell do.

(The guys who sit next to me have said on many occasions, "you are one sick m-f-er, Shiffrar.")

Football is different than baseball. It's testosterone mixed with beer mixed with Jamison mixed with hatred mixed with adoration.

[miketc]

Right now, there's not a lot to get overly excited about. Watch the 2 magic numbers count down -- hoping the larger one makes it to zero -- and further hoping all the starters get enough rest, injuries get healed, and no one else gets hurt.

Kinda tough to get passionate about medical reports.

[buckner was framed]

miketc-
except for the ones out of Buffalo re: TE Kevin Everett's progress with his spinal injury

[Tears of Youk]

Regarding thtis whole Belichick/stealing signs nonsense: this is what I wrote tto Gary Myers this morning, who wrote a wah wah baby article tthat Bill mus be suspended: "What Belichick and the Patriots did is what EVERY Major League Baseball teams does EVERY game, trying to figure out the opposing teams signs. When a baseball team figures out the other teams signs, is it REALLY a big deal? Does anyone ever get into trouble with the league office? Does the other team wail around and point fingers like little babies? The answer to all of those previous questions is of course, NO. Which leads me to finding this whole Patriots signal stealing thing to be hugely blown out of proportion. It's called "gamesmanship", and every baseball team tries it every game. And just like with baseball, just because the other team has the other teams signs, it FAR from means they can figure them out and make that a factor in the game. If the Patriots are harshly penalized for this, it's a travesty. Every team does something like this, they just happen to get caught. And just so you know, just because I'm from Connecticut, I'm not a Pats fan, I just think this whole situation is almost patently laughable, when it goes on all the time in other realms of sport."
Feel free to discuss

[Billy Mahty]

Which is worse: A-Rod girl-slapping a ball and shouting "Ha!", or stealing defensive plays in an NFL game?

Do you think Brady knew about this?

[Tarrkid]

hb: "Do you understand how much Belichik the Patriots are hated outside of New England? They are the Yankees of the NFL."

Abso-friggin'-lutely.

I've had the pleasure of living in the Louisville, KY area for the past 15 years. For a while it was such a pro football wasteland that the local affiliate broadcasting AFC games would have phone-in polls to determine which game they would broadcast, and the Colts and Bengals usually were NOT chosen!

Now, of course, the place is so maddeningly Colt-oriented you would think that Peyton Manning was birthed from between the Twin Spires of Churchill Downs or something. One big friggin' bandwagon, I tellsya... But I digress...

Apparently, we won in 2001 because the league wanted us to win. 2003 was because Carolina couldn't keep a kickoff inbounds, and 2004 was because T.O. and McNabb were on the verge of an on-field hissy-fit at each other. Puh-leeeze.

Not only are the Pats the Yankees of the NFL, but everyone points to Moss/Stallworth/Thomas/Welker as proof of that. Arguments about wisely spending under the salary cap fall on a deaf ear. They want to hate the Pats the same way people wanted to hate the 49ers and the Cowboys and the Steelers.

I'm withholding judgement until the final word comes down, but they can fine the Pats money, they can even suspend Bill for a bit. But if they take away significant draft picks, I might lose sleep over that one.

[yazbread]

We pitch Lester tonight and the MFY throw Moose on the mound. Let's pick up a game tonight and knock 2 off the magic number.

[JeffinDC]

I told my friend who is a big O's fan that we were helping them keep the DRays in the cellar. Now they need to return the favor and keep beating up the Yanquis.

[Tarrkid]

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and MY INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league’s decision, I will have further comment.”

OK, maybe I'm reaching here, but that statement (emphasis mine) sounds like he might have tried to make a case that he thought what was going on was allowed by the rules...

[Bob]

The latest word from my mole (about 51.5% reliable, so take it for what it's worth):

Belichik is arguing that the taping was to be used for FUTURE games. In other words, the video had basically no use during the current game (no time to call, set-up, subsitute an offense between the few seconds of "stealing" the signals and the actual play), but rather was used to "scout" signals for future games.

I have no idea whether that's illegal either.

[Devine]

Go Sox! Eff teh Yankeeeeeezzz!!!111!!!

[Kaz]

Anyone trying to draw parallels to the Pats and the Yankees are just spiteful morons. The biggest reason (as Tarrkid mentioned) is the salary cap. They Yankees are who they are because they spend what they spend. The NFL plays by different rules. We've won on good players, great leadership, and a few surreptitiously lucky breaks (tuck rule, etc) that kept us around to have the players and leadership win the games. I'd say 9 out of 10 haters are more envious and jealous of the lucky breaks than the players or the leadership. I say tough titties to that one.

If anything even semi-substantial comes from this witch hunt, I will cry foul if more teams aren't popped for the same crimes and misdemeanors. This isn't baseball and steroids, this is baseball and sign-stealing. Get craftier with your signs, etc or lose your advantage in using them in the first place.

[louclinton]

Wholly carp, I don't get the whole mirrors-on-my-shoetops (uh, I mean video signal stealing) thing.

Exactly why isn't it fair game? It happens in front of 80,000 people. Why wouldn't you study the other side's signals?

Jason O, I heard that Pittsburgh story before, I believe it. Belichek is a mofo,but he's our mofo.

Accordingly, on this 9/12/07, I say

Fuck OBL in his fucking fuckhole.

God bless,

lc

[vermonter]

/Which is worse: A-Rod girl-slapping a ball and shouting "Ha!", or stealing defensive plays in an NFL game?/

Why, A-Rod, of course. You must have meant that rhetorically, Billy.

[h.b.]

I confess I'm enjoying seeing so many of you try to be rational in the irrational world of sports fandom.

This is all about who controls the spin of the story. Right now the Pats/Belichick don't.

And even if they do get control of it, it'll always be too late to a certain extent.

The "cheater" thing is out there in the public and some of it will stick no matter what the truth/facts are or the final outcome becomes.

I should issue the caveat that I'm not that big of Pats fan, so I'm not as emotionally invested as many of you.

[meredith]

Belichick might be a bastard, but dammit, he's our bastard. (And I feel that doubly b/c we share an alma mater. Never mind that Mangini was a classmate of mine ... he defected to the other side, so screw him. ;)

If what the Pats did was technically against the rules, then fine the team, and sure, suspend Bill for a game if you have to. But don't take away draft picks. That's just way too far above and beyond.

But back to the Sawx ... anybody else kinda worried about our man Wake? Here's hoping Tito sees reason and sits him down over the weekend. The Yanks have been his nemesis for years already, no need to have him go up there and pitch tee-ball practice.

[Devine]

Don't worry, meredith. Wake ain't in the rotation, so he won't get eaten alive by the Yankees.

That's what'll happen to Matsuzaka.

And possibly Beckett.

Oy. I really want them to win 2 of 3 this weekend. But 1 would be, y'know, a start.

[Devine]

That is to say, Wake isn't in the rotation this weekend. It's Matsuzaka/Beckett/Schilling Fri/Sat/Sun.

[meredith]

Sorry to post twice, but I must admit to reading other Sox-related blogs (I know, I know, I'm a two-timer) and I just checked out today's Keys To The Game, which ended with this bit of sound logic from Mr. Melendez:

While it is pretty clear that the NFL has a rule against electronic surveillance of an opponent’s defensive signals and that the Patriots broke that rule, Jose contends that there should be no punishment. That rule is clearly superseded by the federal law permitting warrantless wiretapping. See, there’s a reason they called it the Patriot Act rather than the Jets Act.

Q.E.D.

[Scott]

I am a partial season ticket holder and have been a Pats fan since the early 80's. I have cheered this team on though all the low points of the franchise. I have driven up the PA turnpike in order to listen to the games on WEEI when I lived in Philly. I drove to the 1 bar with the satellite across town to watch the team on a 13" TV in the corner. I stood in line for hours and almost was trampled to death in 1996 in order to get tickets for the 1st home playoff game in decades. I spent a fortune to watch my team play the Eagles in the SB.

Now these mediots are trying to tell me what this team has accomplished is diminished? You have to be kidding me!
All sour grapes. Did the videotape tell Hobbs which way to run during his kickoff return? It drives me crazy that people are gathering with their torches and pitchforks like an angry mob over this. This team used to be a footnote, a laughingstock. It never got any coverage on ESPN. I used to have to fight over the 1 TV in college to watch the 30-seconds of Pats "highlights". Now a little success and they are so quick to knock the team down. The stinkin Donkees cheated the salary cap the season they won the SB and didn't get this much criticism.

I hope this bit of "adversity" draws the team closer together. Now they can play the "disrespect" card again. And we know how effective that is.

To all you Pats haters out there GFY!

[jamesfrmmaine]

This quote sums up what I couldn't clearly say earlier this morning...

Oh and thanks h.b. for joining in on the pats venting...(to feel the already mounting frustration I have you have to imagine the phone calls and jeers I have gotten already this morning from my 'friends' and coworkers)

"What the Pats did is in clear violation of league rules, as video cameras aren’t allowed on the field, whether they’re getting the signals or not. They will have to pay the consequences. At the same time, I think this is getting overblown. Anybody, including just a player sitting on the sideline, can look at the signals, write them down, and match them with the Polaroid that soon follows each play, and I’m sure every team is guilty of trying to figure out the signals of the opposing team. Also, I believe coaches have a short window in which they can communicate to the QB, and I’m sure there’s not enough time to get in the correct play call to counteract whatever signals are coming in at the exact same time. Heck, Romeo Crennel’s signals were video taped by the NFL and shown, along with the final play, on the Pats’ last Superbowl video. The thing is, signals change week to week, the amount of plays teams use during a single game is huge, and this actually giving some sort of huge advantage is ludicrous. Plays even change as the defense tries to read what the offense is doing. Is this illegal and dumb? Yes."

[pudge]

Yawn.

As soon as the media start to care about the regular cheating of A-Rod ("why Dustin, your chin looks dirty, let me brush it off with my elbow!", I'll care about this.

[h.b.]

Don't mean to be joining in on the Pats venting in a negative way.

Should I just delete this one and pretend it never happened?

[illegitimate son of dwight evans]

For any of you watching the top 9th last night, if you looked carefully at the crowd shot, you would've seen an illegitimate son of dwight evans in his disgustingly dirty Red Sox cap and a black jacket mugging in the 4th row.

As for the Pats - I hate to be the guy saying "the league is just coming down on the champs", but, well...

Look, a rule's a rule, and the Pats definitely broke it. But this isn't Bonds roiding his way to a record; even if the Pats were able to do anything with the data they collected, it didn't help the Pats O-line just own the Jets, and it didn't get Randy Moss out of triple coverage. And then of course there's what Jamesfrommaine said, namely, that anyone can just watch the opposing sidelines for signals, watch the plays, and build correlations. Coaches know that anyone will do anything for an edge, it's why they cover their mouths when they call plays.

Frankly, I think it's a bigger disgrace to the game that Bill Polian is still on the NFL rules junta competition committee for passing a rule that wide receivers are essentially untouchable after his Colts got manhandled by the Pats corners disrupting their timing. Lebron James gets hit harder driving the lane than any WR in the NFL today. The league needs to get off its passing-rules-to-benefit-one-coaches-scheme kick and get back to playing, you know, football.

[h.b.]

Forgot to add: I think the title of today's strip should stand as evidence for my overall view on this issue.

It's minor. A misdemeanor kind of thing like a panty peep and not a full out violation like a sexual assualt.

Still, and this gets to my larger point, once you're labeled as a panty peep, it's hard to shake it and people assume that if you're doing that then you're probably also up to all kinds of other worse things.

[Aaron]

I agree with all the previous sentiments about the taping: there's no way it would have helped them during yesterday's game, everybody does it, etc, etc.

However, it was still stupid. The Pats had been accused of this stuff before (after the Green Bay game last year) and standing across the field from them is a coach who a) used to be on Belichik's staff and therefore knows how he operates, and b) hates Belichik with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns.

Of all the times to try and pull shit like this, a game vs. Mangini would seem to be the worst possible time. Just dumb, dumb, dumb.

As for the Sox: great, now we have two slumping pitchers who can't get out of the fourth inning? Hopefully, Francona has Dice-K on a short leash Friday, and doesn't wait until we're down four or ficve before sending Buckholz out there.

[Harwich Rich]

Oh puh-leeze,don't tell me Saint Peyton's team ever "cheats". No,the NFL moguls would never let the league take a hit like that. IMHO

[Bob]

//...once you're labeled as a panty peep, it's hard to shake it//

Actually, in my experience, being a panty peep makes it much, much easier to shake it.

Once again, Saturday, anyone? Anyone? Come on, there's got to be somebody who's going to the game Saturday.

[h.b.]

Oh, Bob, that was good, very good.

[Billy Mahty]

vermonter: haha... you're right. The moment I wrote that I realized I had used the "Hitler analogy" as far as Sox fans are concerned.

Incidentally, I'm a Jets fan (surprise, surprise), but I don't hate the Pats. It's hard to not respect a dominant team of great athletes, no matter which side they're on, unless they're a bunch of d*cks. And the Pats never seemed (to me) like a bunch of d*cks.

[Jay]

So I made one of my patented don't pay attention to the details blunders. Bob you'll be glad to hear this. Originally I thought I had six tix to Sundays game. Lined up five friends to go. Picked up 4 of the tickets yesterday and realized I ordered them wrong when I won the lottery....two tix to Sunday in the bleachers and the four RFR seats for Saturday! Good news, I get to go to 2 games this weekend. Bad news, my friends have to scramble to make the timing work out with kids/wives/work. And one less ticket to give someone. Oh well I'm gonna have a blast!

[Bob]

Jay, wanna meet up before the game on Saturday? Baseball Tavern, Copperfield's...they're all good.

[Bob]

My apologies if I've posted this before, but this Cadillac ad from 1915 says it all in regards to Bill Belichick, the Patriots, and this current hoo-haw:

The Penalty of Leadership

In every field of human endeavor, he that is first must perpetually live in the white light of publicity. Whether the leadership be vested in a man or in a manufactured product, emulation and envy are ever at work. In art, in literature, in music, in industry, the reward and the punishment are always the same. The reward is widespread recognition; the punishment, fierce denial and detraction. When a man’s work becomes a standard for the whole world, it also becomes a target for the shafts of the envious few. If his work be merely mediocre, he will be left severely alone - if he achieve a masterpiece, it will set a million tongues a-wagging. Jealousy does not protrude its forked tongue at the artist who produces a commonplace painting. Whatsoever you write, or paint, or play, or sing, or build, no one will strive to surpass or to slander you, unless your work be stamped with the seal of genius. Long, long after a great work or a good work has been done, those who are disappointed or envious continue to cry out that it cannot be done. Spiteful little voices in the domain of art were raised against our own Whistler as a mountebank, long after the big world had acclaimed him its greatest genius. Multitudes flocked to worship at the shrine of Wagner, while the little group of those whom he had dethroned and displaced argued angrily that he was no musician at all. The little world continued to protest that Fulton could not build a steamboat, while the big world flocked to the river to see his boat steam by. The leader is assailed because he is the leader, and the effort to equal him is merely added proof of that leadership. Failing to equal or to excel, the follower seeks to depreciate and to destroy - but only confirms once more the superiority of that which he strives to supplant. There is nothing new in this. It is as old as the world and as old as the human passions - envy, fear, greed, ambition, and the desire to surpass. And it all avails nothing. If the leader truly leads, he remains - the leader. Master-poet, master-painter, master-workman, each in his turn is assailed, and each holds his laurels through the ages. That which is good or great makes itself known, no matter how loud the clamor of denial. That which deserves to live - lives.

[Bob]

Temporary bad news:

Mike Lowell is out of tonight's lineup because of illness, possibly food poisoning, and Jacoby Ellsbury is also out with an ailing wrist.

[IkeG]

Worse news ... they're going to lose 2 of 3 to TB because they can't consistently hit that stellar pitching staff the D-Rays have.

[IkeG]

I stand corrected. Is it too gay to say that put me in a priapristic state? Schwing!

[iwikkidhahtthasawx]

Viva el Papi! Even if it was just to beat the Devil Rays, everyone loves a walk-off homer.
I don't thinks it's too gay to say; there will be quite a bit of priaprism in the Nation tonight.
Obviously we can't rely on the Yanks to show themselves the door, we'll just have to scrap it out. 12 and dropping.

[Rob in CT]

Okay, that was fun. I come in from a late night working (this job is starting to get to me...) turn on MLB radio, and wha-wha-wha?!? down to the Devil Rays, bottom of the 9th? Papi's juuuussst coming to the plate. I listen with not that much faith in my heart; one ball, foul, two balls, three... Whoo Ha! I looovve me some Big Papi!

Bob, I loved the Caddy ad! Thanks for sharing. I did a little cut & pasting with that one. Had to turn off BBTN after seeing Papi's heroics - NFL Live was leading with "Spygate". Okay, Mike Golic, STFU. Move on people, move on. Nothing to see here. Sheesh!

[Joe]

Two comments onthe justifications going on here:
First the everybody does it excuse, sounds like the I was just following orders excuse. Murders happen everyday doesn't mean you can commit one yourself. And yes I realize this is not on the same level, I'm just saying the excuse is BS.
Second, the it really didn't help excuse, then why do it, Duh?!?

[Bob]

Joe, the "everybody does it" isn't an excuse. Its fact.

A Packers offiial said the only reason they didn't call the Pats out for taping last year was because...

they were doing it too.

Think the Pack will get penalized?

Ha.