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Your world frightens and confuses me

You're not in Arizona anymore bean pole.


What's also hilarious about Randy's media meltdown is that usually celebrity men get into fights with cameramen when they are part of a celebrity couple like Timberlake with Diaz or Sean Penn with Madonna and not by themselves.


Well, Randy is in love with Randy, so what do you expect but a little worship at the alter of Onan?


Speaking of confrontations, did you see that dude Sully lay down the Sabermetrics bitch slap in the comments to a Jim Rice Hall of Fame post at Surviving Grady?


Hell yeah. I loved it when one guy dismissed Sabermetrics because it's "un-American."


Considering that a good portion of our republic still dismisses the science behind the theory of evolution as blasphemy, maybe he's got a point?


Yeah, To hell with your logic and fancy numbers, we all know the tsunami was an Act of God and Rice should be in the Hall because "the ball was like a rocket flying off his bat."


I always wonder if when one of the anti-Sabermetrics goes to the doctor do they refuse to take any tests? You know, "No, no, doctor. You're not swabbing my throat or taking my blood to find out why I'm spitting up glowing green mucous. Just look at me ferrcrissakes! Can't you just tell by looking at me?"


I imagine as well these flat earthers also buy lots of lottery tickets in hopes of winning the big one and check the Farmer's Almanac for the weatha forecast.



HAHA, I loved that discussion! Sully rocks! I liked how those uninformed folks could "eyeball" Rice and call him a HOFer. Oh, and that Boggsy's a douchebag? Nice counterpoint there.

I love Rice too, but the HOF is a hard sell at this point. Nice to know I'm not alone in RSN by feeling that way. Would you call Edgar Martinez a HOFer? Well, his #'s look a lot like Rice's.

Bring on the leeches to restore my humours, because I am experiencing a buildup of bile...and put Jimma in the Hall!

Gimme a fucking break with comparing Edgar with our own Jimmy. Jimmy hit against Ryan, Palmer, Blyleven, Guidry, Gossage etc. Edgar hit against the pudd's of today. Edgar never even owned a glove, while Jimmy was an above average fielder. Edgar played indoors and Jimmy played in perhaps the worst weather ballpark in MLB. Why pull that shit on him. That's like comparing an 1970 LS7 Chevelle with a 2004 GT Mustang. BTW, if you looked like Randy's Johnson would you want your picture taken?

One of my points in that argument that was never addressed was that the On Base % is less important for your number 4 hitter, because you want him swinging. At least in the 80's Rice's manager would have demanded that he swing, so one could claim it has more to do with era than Rice's ability to get on base.

It was a fun discussion.

OK, so I guess the battle moves here. I hope this is what you intended H.B. :)

Anyways, let me just shoot down the "above average" fielder tag being applied to Rice. He was strictly average. His Fielding % was either slightly above or below average every year of his career. He wound up with a .980 mark for his career. The average Left Fielder spanning Rice's career would have had a .981 mark. Statistically, he is below the average, but I'll be nice and give him the .001% benefit and call it average. Further, his career Range Factor was 2.10 and the average Left Fielder during his time was at 2.13.

Now that that's out of the way, I admit Edgar is not the best comparison. If you want to compare him to a guy who could field, try Ellis Burks. Would you consider him a Hall of Famer? Class act, but not a guy I'd vote in. He actually was a better fielder (FP=.983; RF=2.35) than Rice as well as putting up very comparable offensive numbers:


Yeah, I know Burks had that one monster season in Colorado, but Rice had The Wall his whole career. Per plate appearance, Rice had .161 Runs Created over his career while Burks had .164.

And Burks facing Pedro, Maddux and Randy in their primes was similar to Rice facing those that you mentioned.

And let's not forget Rice's career .225 average and .678 OPS in the postseason.

All in all, Rice could sneak in there. It wouldn't be the worst thing ever and I'd be happy for him as a Sox fan. But based solely on numbers, it's hard to think he's a slam dunk.

"Jimmy was an above average fielder"

Well, I suppose this statement could be true if you defined the average fielder as Mike Greenwell. Otherwise, not so much.

"Jimmy played in perhaps the worst weather ballpark in MLB"

Well, yeah, perhaps if you forget about Candlestick, Cleveland, Detroit, or Chicago for starters.

Which is not to say that Jim Ed Rice was not an excellent player for a long time, or that at his peak he wasn't better than Edgar Martinez. But neither one of them is a Hall of Famer IMO.

A flat-earther called me the c-word in the comments section of my entry today.


I saw that.

Sheesh is right. I think I'd have gone into hiding for a couple of weeks after getting taken to school on the "8% more" mistake from yesterday, but that's just me.

h.b., please don't let them bring that stuff over here. No offense, Sully, but I actually read every comment on that thread over there and, well, there's 45 minutes my boss will never get back.

Please keep this site about the sox we love and the others we hate, with the occasional Smiths reference or Heathers quote thrown in there to make us all sound clever.

Oh yeah, and I think Rice should be in the HOF!

He was our team captain. Played his whole career in one uniform. I loved him when I was a kid and I still do.

If he goes to the HOF, he makes the criteria for consideration to have his number up on the wall. That's my biggest reason. I want to see Jim Ed Day at Fenway.

See, no stats needed.

No offense taken. It was painful for me too, Whitey.

Meanwhile, I just wanna know one thing. I clicked on the tsunami/act of god link and instantly regretted it, but I just want to know, how the fuck do you find places like that?

Oh, and do you pingback? I'm sure they'll appreciate your custom ...

Sully, don't sweat it. I think Surviving Grady is a fantastic blog and a lot of fun, but the critical comments towards your position by a couple of the mouthbreathers in the 'Rice for HoF' thread were so phenomenally stupid that I'm stunned to discover that they're not actually Yankee fans. And it's pretty funny that one of them actually called you condenscending (when he wasn't calling you another 'c' word) given that he was actually quite insulting towards you and dismissive of your arguments right from the start.

Jim Ed Rice: Bringing People Together

What about the people who don't know/understand the numbers? Are they precluded from full fanship and enjoyment of the game?

I didn't comment in the Jim Rice thread on SG (other than one at the end about how WARP3 made me think of Star Trek) because, to be perfectly honest, I had little to say on the matter. I never got to see Rice play in person, and I didn't feel myself equal to the numbers. I'm a poor art student with no head at all for ye olde numerals.

But if I see David Ortiz play, do I need to know his stats to be able to say, with authority, that he's a great player? Am I less worthy or intelligent fan because I doodle baseball players instead of looking up their batting averages?

BFiM, of course not. All I will say is if you are as interested in baseball as you say you are and as intelligent as you seem, there is a world of fascinating research and writing out there that I am confident you will enjoy.

I, for one, subscribe to the theory of sabermetrics and find it a vitally important part of the game. And although I don't spend a lot of time actually crunching those numbers and working formulas, I do enjoy finding out information on players (projections, etc). However, one thing I do is that the Sox didn't use any SABR formula in paying Tek his $40M. That's where I subscribe to the theory that people put stock in other things than numbers.

If Boggs is in the hall then Rice should be in the hall: they're equally mediocre. What the hell is all this talk about Fenway inflating power numbers anyway? How does the wall help anyone's home run stats? Don't even say that it's because it's only 310 to the corner because how many times have we seen "one that would have been out of here in any other park".

Yeah, I'm sure that if I took the time to learn all the sabr-ness of the world, I'd get something out of it. Might even enjoy it.

But I suppose I'm trying to say that just because someone does not subscribe to the stat-centric view of baseball doesn't mean that they're some kind of bizarre luddite. Some, no doubt, are (and check the almanac for their weather forecasts), but some are like me-- people who can list off the scientific names of every major group of chordate, and enjoy telling you about them all in great detail, but whose minds shy away from things like decimals.

Well that's fine. You can love baseball and not know a helluva lot about it. That's cool. I love Beethoven and don't really know the first thing about classical music.

What I think you are misunderstanding though is that SABR is not about numbers. It's about using the appropriate information to further one's understanding of the game. Why do some blindly recite a player's HR or RBI stats when there are better, more encompassing stats to tell you what kind of contribution a player is making? And yet many still rattle off inadequate numbers as though they are gospel, as that Surviving Grady post did to evidence their case for Rice being in the HOF. Not having any interest in SABR is fine but delving into real baseball analysis while altogether ignoring SABR is inadequate to say the very, very least.

What aspects of SABR aren't numbers?

"Our mission is to foster the study of baseball past and present, and to provide an outlet for educational, historical and research information about the game."

SABR's mission.

Maybe I should've said SABRmetrics, since that's the rub here, isn't it? I'm all for baseball research, half my life is some kind of research or other. It's the numbers that get me in the end. :)

Sorry if I started this crap. I didn't mean to offend anyone. Like Sully, I feel like there's a whole new world available to rabid baseball fans by looking into Sabermetrics. Five years ago, few people knew OBP even existed. Now, it's listed as a stat on NESN when a player comes to the plate.

The Sox have Bill James on staff, the father of Sabermetrics. But they also have Bill Lajoie, one of the most respected "old school" GM/scouts ever. So, they approach the game from both angles, just like all baseball fans should. But to dismiss Sabermetics as some hokey religion (like the Jedi) is wrong, just as it is to discount completely what you see in their field.

Seems to me that while the wall turns some pop flies in to home runs, it probably turns some line drive home runs into singles and doubles.

Just to get away from this "My Baseball Analysis Technique is Unstoppable" back-and-forth, I did check the almanac.

If "Fair and Cold" includes rain, freezing drizzle, fog, and below- to above-freezing temperature shifts, I guess the almanac's all over it.

I don't love Kansas.

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