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Sweatin' to the oldies (b/w Steinbrenner gonna pump you up!)

Bill:
Forget about trying to figure out why the moon appeahs biggah when its on the horizon, let's talk about why the loss that ends a long win streak feels biggah …

 

Steve:
No kidding. Going from scoring umpteen runs a game to getting 3 hit and shut out is a sharp rejoinder. But, heh, beats the frig out of having some old nut job telling you you're not trying hard enough.

 

Bill:
Yeah, and I love that the wire story mentions that Steinbrenner dictated the statement to his publicist while lifting weights. Is that supposed to be scary or something?

 

Steve:
Yeah like we're all of a sudden going to be think he's some sort of physical Goliath and not just another one of those droopy skinned old guys haunting the gym in sweaty velour?

 

Bill:
I'm not sure what is more pathetic, the lifting weights image or the fact that he's delusional and doesn't realize his team can't be fixed by players trying hahdah because the Yankees are already playing up to their mediocre capabilities.

 

Steve:
All the wanting to win in the world and still, Tony Womack is Tony Womack.

 

Bill:
Yeah, but don't forget Georgie's secret weapon: the Cashman whiner line.

 

Steve:
Ah, of course. The Yankees' place in the standings has nothing to do with poor pitching and disastrous defense, no, it's all because of those damned dirty umps.

 

Comments

...waiting for the day when the Schmankees are so bad that you don't bother to devote so much space to them.

Can someone throw me a link to the article about the contributions Bellhorn makes? I'm not hating on Mahkie but Holy Crap!

"...waiting for the day when the Schmankees are so bad that you don't bother to devote so much space to them."

I doubt that'll ever happen. The Red Sox and Yankees are like yin and yang.

Even when the Yankees have been horrible, there was always something special about playing a series with them. Can't see that ever changing.

Speaking for myself, I love that the Yankees are there acting as a constant foil, a doppleganger one can never fully shake.

It's going to be weird, though, when Steinbrenner is no longer around. I can't imagine the Yankees without him.

Who would we truly hate, if not for Steinbrenner? What if the next Yankee owner was caring, and tried to keep the whole MLB competitive, or even bought into the moneyball concept. What then? Our children would miss out on what we have enjoyed for so long. Isn't that what made the 2004 ALCS so special?

Hey, F the New York Post. They want your life story just to read their filthy rag. The Post Sucks as bad as the MFY's.

h.b. - You, I mean, your CHARACTERS have it all wrong today. The Yanks have played up to their abilities? Johnson has pitched like Johnson? Pavano has pitched as expected??? Not even close.
Matsui has under performed at the plate, but he's getting back on track. Even Giambi is crawling back into respectability.

The Yankees problems right now are all come down to center field. They needed a plan to deal with Bernie as he got older and they didn't have one. Not sure why. Sometimes it is difficult to phase out a player who has been so great and played so well for a team. Once they get that solved, either this year or next, the rest of the outfield falls into place nicely. They have to address the situation at catcher as well, but Posasda/Flaherty will get them through the season.

The point of all this is the Yankees have NOT played up to their abilities this year (and they are still just 5.5 games back - can you believe that???). And steinbrenner is correct when he insists that they should. Of course, he says it in a way that causes a public commotion, but that comes with the territory when you play in NY. Can't fault the Boss for that. It's like getting mad at the rain for being wet. It is what it is. If he trades away Cano or Wang he's a complete fool. Those kids are great and they are INEXPENSIVE. I hope Stick Michael can be the voice of reason down in Tampa today...


BigBri,

Me talking here. I honestly think the Yankees are pretty much playing as expected, i.e, right at their abilities. Going into the season all the "experts" cited several glaring weaknesses with the Yankees: defense and the possibility that ageing veterans could begin to show their age (and this includes Randy Johnson). I think we are seeing the chickens come home to roost in that regard.

Does this mean the Yankees will finish in 3rd place with 85 wins? Not at all. I never count the Yankees out. But I'd say there is a better than even chance at this point that they are a .500 club. I've seen no evidence, now 3 full months into the season, to the contrary.

Jeff- 'What if the next owner bought into the moneyball concept'. You are friggin' joking me right??? The SAWX are FAR removed from 'moneyball'. Unless by Moneyball you mean attempting to outspend their rivals, which the SAWX do almost as well as the Yankees.

The Yankees payroll is 69% greater than the SAWX. The SAWX payroll is 69% greater than the WhiteSox - a team that has 6 more wins than you do right now. The WHitesox rank 18th (out of 30) for total payroll. That means you outspend well over half of baseball, percentage-wise, in the same manner the Yankees outspend you. Talk to the Kansas City Royals (36 mil) or the Oakland A's(55 mil) and see if they believe the SAWX have embraced 'Moneyball',or if the SAWX are concerned with 'keeping the whole MLB competitive'.

What a Nation of clowns...

BigBri,

Never said the Red Sox were Moneyball. Settle down my friend. I never said we don't spend money. Just trying to be funny.

H.B. I continue to love the site, and I send many people here to check it out. Too bad some people can't just read and enjoy, but feel the need to criticize.

Thanks.

One of the popular misconception of MoneyBall is that it is all about being cheap and not spending money. No, no, no. The thesis of Moneyball is to spend money wisely by doing analysis.

BigBri should enjoy this new book about to come out:
Mind Game : How the Boston Red Sox Got Smart and Finally Won a World
> Series

From the publisher:

"Created by Steven Goldman and the writers and analysts at Baseball Prospectus—the preeminent annual on the inside game of baseball, with 91,000 copies in print, and Web site, www.baseballprospectus.com, that receives 5 million hits a month—Mind Game explains why the unenlightened Twins gave up on David Ortiz; what led the Sox to understand Johnny Damon’s true value and give him the ideal place in the batting order; how Boston actually gained by having Keith Foulke as a closer vs. Mariano Rivera; and what would likely have happened if the Boston–A-Rod trade went through. (Hint: even worse for the Yankees.)"

That's your MoneyBall right there.

Bling Bling. Man, those WS rings should do reflect the light. :)

Relax everybody, the Yankees helped us out last night, keeping the O's at bay on a night that we lost. We should be grateful.

You just knew the Indians were going to be on the warpath after we swept them at the Jake. I still think we can expect 4-2 on this homestand with the Indians and Jays, at worst 3-3 if Halliday and Lilly both pitch lights out (but I think our hitters should get Lilly's number one of these days).

So if the Yankees can keep the Orioles off our backs we should be okay. Even if the worst happens and we have a rough homestand, we get a nice warm-up against the Rangers (where we can hope for a sweep and maybe a rested bullpen) before a four-game series with the O's at Camden Yards and then the All-Star Break. After that it should be clear-sailing against the Yanks and Tampa Bay before we have to face the real power of the American League, the White Sox, with the always scary El Duque. But we should have Schilling back by then so all should be okay.

I think HB has created the "BigBri" character as a Comedy Central-style spoof of a Yankee fan. There's no way a real Yankee fan could call Red Sox fans hypocrites on the one hand and then complain that the Sox payroll is unfair to the Royals and Twins on the other hand. I know a lot of crazy Yankee fans, but none of them are that schizoid.

Heh heh. "Just 5.5 games back!" Right, like being 30 minutes off the pace in the Boston Marathon. "can you believe that" - I sure can.

hb,

First of all, I love this site and eventually I'll stop being 'like Timmy". Secondly, I hope you don't consider my comment to be negative criticism. I mean, what's wrong with hoping that the Yankees suck so bad someday we will not even discuss them?

I guess I was looking for more about the Sox this morning- help licking my wounds, misery loves company kind of thing... I live in Cleveland so I'm getting a lot of the 'other' side of the story.

BigBri posted:
< Matsui has under performed at the plate, but he's getting back on track. Even Giambi is crawling back into respectability.

The Yankees problems right now are all come down to center field. They needed a plan to deal with Bernie as he got older and they didn't have one. Not sure why. Sometimes it is difficult to phase out a player who has been so great and played so well for a team. Once they get that solved, either this year or next, the rest of the outfield falls into place nicely.>>

I can't really agree with your logic here, except with the Unit - he's also very, very old, and predicting future output from 40+ pitchers is a daunting task. You should expect his numbers to dip every year of his contract, although I wouldn't think as much as they have this season.

Same thing with the now cream/clear-less Sheffield - he's still a great player, but as he edges past 35 his performance will necessarily dip. He's not a huge injury risk, but time takes its toll.

Bernie, as you mentioned, is a cesspool of suck - and Giambi, even without any boost, is on the wrong end of 30 as well.

Posada is playing like an aging catcher, Mussina is in his age-37 season and thus will be dropping, Kevin Brown was old with the Pads and is showing corpsehood . . .

And where exactly did you get predictions for Pavano? Here's one:

180 IP, 4.51 ERA, 5.1 k/9 (50pctl PECOTA

His actual line:

100 IP, 4.77 ERA, 5.04 k/9

He's pitching almost exactly how the stats-oriented teams (which you'd call "moneyball") would project him. It's a happy coincidence that the Yankees paid him out of this world dollars, hence keeping the Sox off him. Thank God.

Jeff - guess I missed the humor. I'm settled down now ;-).

h.b. - I absolutely understand the concept of moneyball. If Moneyball means getting the most for your money then the SAWX are doing a horrible job when compared to the White Sox or those pesky Nats. You guys can throw stones at the Yanks all you want, but you are living in a glass house. Incidentally, the Twins didn't sign Ortiz because they couldn't afford him given his performance while playing for them. They are currently paying their first baseman 750K. Ortiz makes over 5 mil.

PAWSOXPOP - Sigh. You amaze me with your ability to consistently miss the point. I'm not complaining about the SAWX payroll being unfair to anyone. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy that exists in all SAWX fans who bitch about the Yankee payroll, Evil Empire, 200 million, blah, blah, blah while the SAWX outspend other teams in the same way the Yankees outspend you.

I realize that nobody has ever taken the time to explain this stuff to you guys. It's too easy to point at the 200 mil number and ignore everything else. You're (do you like the correct spelling PAW?) welcome...

"then the SAWX are doing a horrible job when compared to the White Sox or those pesky Nats"

Ah, let's see under Theo Epstein's Moneyball ways the Red Sox were 5 outs away from the World Series in 04 and then, if I'm not mistaken, they won the whole thing last year.

Where have the White Sox been, oh, this Century?

As for the Nats? Oh for fuck's sake. How many times did you read this phrase in MoneyBall: "It's about process not outcome."

The Red Sox have a process. And I must say I like it. Hail Theo!

Tessie,

No negative taken. Just wanted to be on record for saying I actually enjoy all the goings on with the Yankees.

Jeff,

Thanks for spreading the word on the site. Thanks to everyone who has. The growth in readership has been exponential, and I think that has very much to do with word of mouth.

You're right Bri, I do consistently miss the point, and I'm still missing it.

"I'm pointing out the hypocrisy that exists in all SAWX fans who bitch about the Yankee payroll, Evil Empire, 200 million, blah, blah, blah while the SAWX outspend other teams in the same way the Yankees outspend you."

A lot of those other teams are not even in our division. We have to compete with the Evil Empire, so what's so hypocritical about trying to spend about 60 percent of what they spend? Of course I'm sure you and the other un-hypocritical Yankee fans would be very happy if the Sox would spend as much as the KC Royals or the MN Twins.

As long as we spend it wisely, and not on a bunch of tired old guys. So thanks again to the Yanke for beating the O's last night, and thanks for outspending us on Bernie Williams and Randy Johnson and especially Carl Pavano (thanks that his Mom was a Yankee fan too!)

h.b. - But, but, but...if only the Whitesox could afford to spend as much as the RedSAWX then THEY could enjoy success as well. Isn't that the logical conclusion one would draw when listening to you chowdah-heads bitch and whine about the 'evil empire'? It's not FAIR that George spends so much money! In fact, Evil Empire was a phrase coined by SAWX management when Georgie boy whipped his dick (and his checkbook) out and outspent you guys in order to bring Jose Contreras to the Yankees.

Team salary has always been discussed, or bitched about, in the case of SAWX fans, in this context:

'If only WE could spend that much money, we'd be winners too'.

When you look at it in that way - and there's no other way to look at it, the SAWX ARE doing a horrible job this season when compared to the White Sox or those pesky Nats. There's a whole host of teams (most of the teams in Major League Baseball actually) who feel the same way about the SAWX as you guys feel about the Yankees.

And one more thing - 'It's about process, not outcome'??? Geeeet the fuck outa here! it's ALWAYS about outcome.

"'It's about process, not outcome'??? Geeeet the fuck outa here! it's ALWAYS about outcome."

You didn't read the book did you? Or if you did, you missed the entire thesis.

So there's no point in wasting any more time going back and forth on it. It's like trying to discuss science with a creationist.

Funny, I don't see fans from "a whole host of teams" coming to this site calling Sox fans hypocrites, although if a KC or Minn. fan did, I could understand it.

Coming from a Yankee fan, it sounds pretty hypocritical.

Oh yeah, and thanks for outspending us on Contreras too!

BigBri:

Speaking of throwing stones whilst in glass houses, you should do some research before you open yer yap. The Twins left Ortiz unprotected because they wanted to sign him cheaper, because his numbers weren't spectacular. 2002 with the Twins: .272, 20HR, 75 RBI. Ortiz was in no position to ask for a big raise from the Twins and thus the Twins didn't cut him loose because of payroll. In his first season in Boston his HRs and RBIs both jumped by a third and they've only increased since. If anything, the Sox have him as a bargain, especially considering Sheffield and BERNIE WILLIAMS both make more than twice what he does to do less at the plate and botch fly balls.

"it's ALWAYS about outcome." So why don't you guys shut yer yaps while other teams get their rings? Why the "26-time world champions!" nonsense whenever someone says, "we beat your ass last year"? Why is Bernie still in center when he can't get to anything hit more than 15 feet away from him? Why is Torre giving the ball to Kevin Brown every 5th game?

Perhaps this article from the Dallas Morning News can explain it to you folks:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/columnists/tcowlishaw/stories/102904dnspocowlishaw.31682.html

Excerpts:

"Red Sox fans are something else now. They are fans of champions, and it needs to be mentioned that they are fans of the team that, if not for the Yankees, would qualify as the most outrageous free spenders in professional sports."

"The Red Sox are champions today because they traded prospects for Pedro Martinez when Montreal could no longer afford him, traded prospects for Curt Schilling when Arizona's pockets were empty and bought Manny Ramirez when Cleveland's tap had run dry in 2000."

"Cheering for the Red Sox in 2004 and 2005, more than anything else in sports, is like cheering for the Yankees. Nothing that Stephen King or John Updike write about their beloved team can change that. "

"I think HB has created the "BigBri" character as a Comedy Central-style spoof of a Yankee fan."

Jesus, I never thought of that. H.B. has an obnoxious Yankee fan character who periodically shows up in the strip, why not have one in the comments as well, to spew insults and get the regulars all riled up? How positively Machiavellian.

The only flaw in this theory, as I see it, is that the "BigBri" character has his own blog. Therefore, we'd have to assume that H.B. has not only created this Yankee fan straw man, but that he also keeps up a second, fake blog, all for the sake of the joke. That's an awful lot of free time. :)

I stand by my earlier assertion that "BigBri" is a real person, but actually a master satirist who is putting us all on. Think about it: if you had to create the absolute stereotype of the obnoxious, loudmouth, condescending, insulting Yankee fan, he would sound exactly like BigBri, wouldn't he? It's perfect. Too perfect.

And the hypocrisy of constantly accusing Sox fans of being obsessed with irrational hatred for the Yankees and their fans, while simultaneously maintaining a blog devoted solely to venting his irrational hatred of the Red Sox and their fans, is too obvious for anyone to miss. Therefore, I posit that he hasn't missed it.

I call "shenanigans!"

Now, I don't expect BigBri to admit that he is a put-on artist, hanging out here and ranting for the sole purpose of making Yankee fans look even sillier than they already do. However, when the season ends and the inevitable "Gotcha! It was a joke! Man, you guys are gullible" comment shows up on one of these posts, I would just like it remembered that I called it first.

Yeah, and backing up your opinion with a quote from the Dallas Morning News?? I mean, who takes that rag seriously? Didn't they once try to convince everyone that the COWBOYS were "America's Team" ???? Now THERE's a team that most of America actually hated!

Yeah, BigBri, if you pick up nothing else from the characters in this blog it's their outright and not subtle disdain for the mainstream sports media. We don't even respect what our own Boston media says about the team, so don't even try Dallas on us. Too funny.

As for propects, ever heard of Hanley Ramirez, Dustin Pedroia, Jon Papelbon, Jon Lester?

No? Oh, you shall, yes, you shall.

Yeah, and when I can't make a point, I rely on specious quotes too.

That's too funny. Hacks like that guy make a career out of highlighting the suffering of diehard Sox fans for 86 years, then turn around and call them bandwagon jumpers because "the curse is finally broken". The Red Sox are champions today because they didn't quit when they were in an 0-3 hole in the ALCS. Because Curt Schilling risked his career to pitch again in the series. Because they took the lead in every WS game and never looked back.

Sure, they traded prospects (though as much as I loved him when he was here, I wouldn't call Casey Fossum a "prospect") for good players. (I'd argue it's better than waiting to buy all-stars on the FA market for $12 mil a year.) But so did a lot of other teams. And none of them are defending champs right now.

I know how it is in Yankeeland, and that's why accusing Sox fans of bandwagoning strikes a chord with you chumps. Up here, cheering for the Red Sox isn't "like" anything; it's cheering for the Red Sox. We've been cheering for middle-of-the-pack teams, last place teams, and now World Champions, and we'll keep on doing it until we're dead.

Careful PAWSOXPOP - You sound like somebody looking down their nose at another city! I thought you beantown boys HATED that?!?!

h.b. - I wasn't addressing the 'characters' in this blog. I was addressing the people who comment here. At least, I THOUGHT I was?!?! Should I be talking to Bob or any of the others? What are their email addresses ;-)? Since Aaron is convinced I am merely a character or a put-on artist, maybe I SHOULD be talking to Bob!

Aaron - I promise you there will be no 'gotcha' at the end of the season - except for the 'gotcha' SAWX fans will have to deal with as your presently over-achieving team slides into obscurity. Also, I post facts, mixed liberally with insults. I posit that it is these FACTS that get the regulars around here 'riled up'. But that's just me. What do I know. I'm just a stupid, obnoxious MFYankee fan.

illegitimate son of dwight evans - You may have noticed that I have carefully avoided engaging you on this blog. That is mainly because:

1- You fail miserably in your attempts to present anything even vaguely resembling a point.

2- Your responses to me, more often than not, having nothing to do with the point made by me in my original post, regardless of the subject.

3- You do all this while using words like 'Whilst' and 'Specious'. It's kind of creepy that your vocabulary is decent while (Whilst?) your reading comprehension is almost nonexistent.

However, I can't help myself any longer. So....here goes. I'm going to take you through this slowly in the hopes you are able to learn something here today. I apologize to the other readers of this blog AND to Al Gore for wasting valuable internet bandwidth, but I think this is important. In much the same way that hugging a participant at the end of a race in the Special Olympics is important.

1. - BigBri's statement: "Incidentally, the Twins didn't sign Ortiz because they couldn't afford him given his performance while playing for them"

You countered with: "you should do some research before you open yer yap. The Twins left Ortiz unprotected because they wanted to sign him cheaper, because his numbers weren't spectacular. 2002 with the Twins: .272, 20HR, 75 RBI. Ortiz was in no position to ask for a big raise from the Twins and thus the Twins didn't cut him loose because of payroll"

Sooooo... the Twins wanted to sign him cheaper. His numbers weren't that spectacular. But...they DIDN'T cut him loose because of payroll. Do you see how none of that adds up to make any sense?

2. BigBri's statement - "Perhaps this article from the Dallas Morning News can explain it to you folks:"

You countered with: "Hacks like that guy make a career out of highlighting the suffering of diehard Sox fans for 86 years, then turn around and call them bandwagon jumpers because "the curse is finally broken".

Ummmmmmm. Nothing in the article, or in the excerpts I posted here accused SAWX fans of being 'bandwagon jumpers'. The point of the article was that SAWX fans are now MORE like Yankees fans and LESS like fans of other teams in the league. This is true because the SAWX behave in much the same way the Yankees do.

Ok. Ring the bell. Class is over. I hope this helps...


Jeez, sounds like someone is really going out of their way to make sure everyone knows Yankees fans and Red Sox fans are similar.

Does grouping us together help ease your pain? Does it help you to live the WS victory vicariously by suggesting we are more alike than not?

"I'm just a stupid, obnoxious MFYankee fan."
-BigBri
Can we document that somehow?

Apart form that, please explain how The Champs are overachieving. I think you've got your wires crossed. The Sox are playing like a team hungry to defend their title. The Skanks are playing like the overpaid underachievers they are.

And, if the Sox are doing a horrible job compared to the ChiSox and Nats, what kind of job are the MFY doing compared to the D-Rays (who are 7-3 against the Bronx BMs) the Royals (who swept them) and the Brewers?

What's the point of talking shit about things like this when it just makes your team look even more like the hapless losers they are. Oh right- to make yourself look like more of a moron than you are.

Oh, this stream of bile is just too sweet! I've sorely missed the unmitigated contempt, the hatred as fresh as a newly opened wound, the Alternate Universe Barney "I hate you, you hate me" discourse. The season has truly begun. Fortunately, we seem to have a 5.5 game headstart.

The Sox are over-achieving?

Uh ... the Sox have been the best-hitting team in all the majors for going on three years now. Four years ago, the only better hitting team was the Yankees. They have very good starting pitching, with perhaps the best of the pack about to return from DL. Middle relief is weak, and so is the closer, else the Sox might have a record matching the other Sox right now.

By no reasonable standard are these guys overachieving.

BigBri, take a look at the video I posted above. It's a love song to the Yankees and their fans.

Geez, LittleBri is gonna have to really start cranking out those pathetic love letters to Soxygirl on her blog so he can feel better about himself.

Him admitting he is a "loose cannon" sorta scares me in the same way the good folks of Wicita, KS were scared of the BTK Killer... pretty soon his rants will get out of hand and you will know LittleBri by the trail of dead... fortunately, the only things that will be dead will by MFY careers and MFY hopes. I am sooooo glad I don't live near NYC anymore, Bri's attitude is typical of any MFNY'er. You can't knock any sense into them, you just kinda... walk away from them and leave them to their own yappings like the crazy bum on the street corner pissing on himself and swearing (a typical sight in Manhattan, BTW).

Some Los Angeles punk rock band from the late 1970's (help me out here h.b., you know it?) had a song called "Let's Get Rid of New York." Amen to that.

BigBri -

Dude, seriously, I refuted you before, this is getting old . . . but Ortiz made $1mil when he was picked up by the Sox (off waivers, no less!).

The current salary of $5mil is an extension, based on his numbers (which exceeded any Yankee except A-Rod last year).

You're correct that the Sox have a tier-1.5 income level, and are traditionally leaders in that second tier (along with the Dodgers, Phillies, and others). The Yankees are alone in the first tier.

If you want to argue, however, you'll have to argue that, dollar for dollar, the Red Sox spend what they have worse than others. If you examine VORP/$spent or other non-W/L measures, you'll see that the Sox spend as well, or better, than any other team. Sure they're spending more, but they're spending better too.

The Nationals and White Sox have fine records, but these are mostly mirages based on stastical deviation in one-run contests. The Nats have been outscored by their opponents. The White Sox have a BABIP of something crazy like .240. You're still missing the point in all of this, which is quite ironic.

"Some Los Angeles punk rock band from the late 1970's (help me out here h.b., you know it?) had a song called "Let's Get Rid of New York." Amen to that."

The Randoms. :)

If you have iTunes, here's the link.

Scott 12xu: Are you thinking of Fear's "New York's Alright If You Like Saxophones"? Here are a few lyrics to jog your memory:

"New York's alright if you wanna get pushed in front of the subway!/New York's alright if you wanna freeze to death!/New York's alright if you wanna get mugged or murdered/New York's alright if you're a homosexual!"

HB: Weren't The Randoms just a side project for X's John Doe? I seem to remember them playing The Masque almost exclusively.

Bob,

Think you're right about the X connection. In fact, I was pretty sure it was X who sang the tune until I Googled it and saw it was Random.

I only have a very surface knowledge of that late 70s early 80s LA punk scene: X, Black Flag, Dead Kennedys.

For a pretty good documentary on the early LA punk scene, get "The Decline of Western Civilization." (BTW, Dead Kennedys were San Francisco-based.)

Right on the DK's. And, theoretically, X traces their roots to Detroit, right?

I vaguely recall seeing that doc once. Or maybe part of it. All fuzzy memory.

Speaking of the DK's, that's one band that hasn't really stood the test of time have they? Not sure if it's the music itself of just all the anti-punk, greedy shenanigans of Biafra over the years that has tainted my experience.

D56 - I listed Ortiz's salary today compared to the salary the Twins are currently paying their first baseman. The fact of the matter is, the SAWX were able to pick him up because the Twins couldn't pay him. Which was the original point. Talk about stuff getting old...

Pardon me if I concentrate more on wins and losses and less on VORP/$spent or other non-W/L measures. I'm a NY guy. It's all about wins and losses. **Note to all RSNers who are tempted to pull that last sentence out of context and make a comment akin to 'looks like the MFY's aren't all about wins lately!' - we all know that. Time will tell the whole story. Stay tuned.

D56, your final comment is very telling - "The Nationals and White Sox have fine records, but these are mostly mirages based on stastical deviation in one-run contests. The Nats have been outscored by their opponents. The White Sox have a BABIP of something crazy like .240. You're still missing the point in all of this, which is quite ironic."

- I assure you I am not missing the point. The point is simply this - The SAWX are spending more (WAY more) but winning less than the WhiteSox. The fact that this may be a 'stastical deviation' means nothing. Winning percentage means everything. Sounds like a lot of rationalization is going on in RSN-land right now. And with all the MIT grads that fill the ranks of RedSAWX Nation, you guys can rationalize those numbers until the cows come home. Doesn't change the fact that you will not repeat this year...

White Sox woo hoo!

"I'm a NY guy. It's all about wins and losses."

I thought that you live in Minnesota.

This is appropriate to the discussion: Forbes annual piece on team valuations and financials.

Interesting tidbit:

04 Yankees player-costs-to-win ratio: 52
04 Red Sox player-costs-to-win ratio: 79

Red Sox definitely got more bang for the buck last year and so far this year as well.

Of course, when your pockets are as deep as Steinbrenner's it really doesn't matter. I guess that's BigBri's much belabored point.

But it does matter to the Red Sox how much they spend because they simply have less money to work with. Sure, it's MORE than every other club except NY, but that doesn't change anything.

The Red Sox are going to continually try to "outsmart" the Yankees to make up the difference.

So far, so good, eh?

//I assure you I am not missing the point. The point is simply this - The SAWX are spending more (WAY more) but winning less than the WhiteSox. The fact that this may be a 'stastical deviation' means nothing. Winning percentage means everything.//

the yankees are spending WAY WAY more than the white sox and are also winning less. so why is it wrong for the sox to spend more and not win as much but its perfectly okay for the yankees to do the same???

A few thoughts on comparing the Boston payroll to the Yankees payroll. Comparing our payroll to the Nationals, while maybe an interesting trivial pursuit question, is exactly that, trivial. The payroll comparisons that matter are the ones with the other teams in your division that you need to beat to guarantee yourself a slot in the playoffs. The Sox (123M) have to play the Yankees (208M) 19 times during the regular season in a critical divisional matchup with Pennant implications. In the NL East you have the Mets (101M), Philly (96M), Atlanta (86M), Florida (60M), and finally Washington (49M). It's been a little while since anyone mentioned the Mets or the Phillies and Pennant in the same sentence (A trend that is likely to continue). The Nats payroll, while very low due in no small part to their ownership situation, is still not obscenely lower then Atlanta, traditionally the class of the division. The same goes for comparing Chicago to Boston. The AL Central (the other comparison from above) looks like this: Chicago (75M), Detroit (69M), Minnesota (56M), Cleveland (41M), KC (37M). Neither of the teams mentioned are faced with the prospect of chasing down a team with anywhere near the resources of the Yankees for a Pennant. I hope nobody is suggesting that Chicago or Atlanta would be spending exactly what they are spending (or anywhere near it for that matter) if another team in their division was spending 200 million on payroll. Conversely, if the Yankees were spending 125 million, I would hazard a guess that the Sox would be spending a lot less. The pressure of competing for a pennant has a lot to do with getting drawn into the psycho signing year that was 2001 when Manny, A-Rod, Delgado and others were signed to Monopoly money deals. It has a lot to do with parting with perceived high value prospects for Pedro (count me among the people who suspect Duquette of dramatically pumping up the hype around Sox prospects as a matter of routine to up their value in trades. Especially the guy that went in the Pedro trade. What was his name again? Oh yeah.. I remember now. How is that Pavano guy doing these days?) Every team faces enormous pressure to 'keep up with the Joneses' in their division.

i WILL REPEAT:

"if the Sox are doing a horrible job compared to the ChiSox and Nats, what kind of job are the MFY doing compared to the D-Rays (who are 7-3 against the Bronx BMs) the Royals (who swept them) and the Brewers?

What's the point of talking shit about things like this when it just makes your team look even more like the hapless losers they are. Oh right- to make yourself look like more of a moron than you are."

You are right about winning % meaning everything though:
The Champs- .587
The Chumps- .513

BigBri: nice try, but you can't reasonably compare the Sox record with the other Sox, especially at this point in the season. They play almost entirely different teams. Winning percentage actually means jack squat, between divisions, except in the abomination known as the Wild Card, and neither team is likely to be playing for that, let alone both.

And you reveal your unreasonableness when you say "time will tell" with the Yankees' poor record, and yet you are ready to make such an invalid comparison with the Sox and the other Sox to make some other point.

"You may have noticed that I have carefully avoided engaging you on this blog."

And you might not have noticed that no one really cares about who you do or not 'engage'. I say 'might not' because it's quite obvious you think that the only reason people 'engage' you here is because they are desperately trying to defend their hollow arguments from your righteous logic.

"1- You fail miserably in your attempts to present anything even vaguely resembling a point."

Coming from a guy who thinks that the first team in MLB history to blow a 3-game lead in a best-of-7 series is somehow still superior to the team that beat them, I'll take that as a compliment.

But I will grant you point #2, nowhere does that quote say anything about WHY "cheering for the Red Sox is like cheering for the Yankees". I made the mistake of assuming some logic in the writer's argument (namely, that because the Yankees only get fans for the occasional few years they field winning teams, the Red Sox newfound popularity has, at root, the same cause). There is, in fact, no logic connecting the two, and now I *really* see why you quoted it in the first place.

And dude, you can't play the "arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics" card if you're going to keep on running. And no you didn't expressly say that, and yes I'm going out on a limb by suggesting that you might have been referencing that, but I'm an optimist and I like to pretend even moronic Yankee fans can string a couple thoughts together.

A tip: when starting flame wars, don't bother trotting out the "I just can't resist" excuse, it makes you look even more insecure. Just admit you're arguing on the internet and dive right in.

Careful PAWSOXPOP - You sound like somebody looking down their nose at another city!

Folks from Pawtucket look down their noses at EVERY other city, didn't you know that? Check out "Outside Providence" by the Farrelly Brothers for a great scene filmed at McCoy Stadium where the main character and his brother are trying to get into a Patriots-Jets exhibition game.


But seriously, it's curious that you quoted the Dallas Morning News. Actually Dallas Cowboy fans were probably the closest to Yankee fans in obnoxiousness during the '70s, calling themselves "America's Team" and bashing everybody over the head with Roger Staubach. But at least their cheerleaders were cuter than the Irish tenor.

Hey, maybe the Spankees should give the Irish tenor a start. He couldn't do much worse than Kevin Brown! Then maybe they could get Jello Biafra to sing "God Bless America" -- or John Doe.

Just want to apologize to the Soxaholix crew as a whole, I should've stayed off that juicy curveball. That felt good to type but it shouldn't have been posted.

"Just want to apologize to the Soxaholix crew as a whole, I should've stayed off that juicy curveball."

No need to apologize. Whenever you see a hanging curve, you should always swing away. And those Yankee fans throw a lot of those hangers these days don't they? Almost as many as their pitching staff.

Oh...my...God. Have any of you people ever seen Shawshank Redemption? What am I saying, it was written by Stephen King, of COURSE you've seen it.
There's a scene where Andy Dufrain (sp?) asks the warden if he is being 'deliberatley obtuse'. I think that must be what's happening here today.

h.b - my point is NOT that it doesn't matter because Steinbrenner's pockets are so deep. My point is that as much as the SAWX have to deal with the Yankees free-spending ways so must the REST of the league deal with money the SAWX are able to spend.

Allison/NV in SD - I never said it was 'wrong' for the SAWX to spend money. What I said was this - "If you are going to point out the Yankees for spending 69% more than you while having a worse record, you should realize that there are teams out there who feel the same way about you. Namely the Nats and the WhiteSox.

Jim- You are wrong about comparisons that really matter. What matters is winning the World Series. Surely you folks know this more than anybody else. Did any of your playoff appearances of the past 86 years soothe your souls? Of course not. Because of that fact it is necessary to do comparisons against all of baseball. But, because I am one HELL of a nice guy, I'll indulge you. Let's talk AL East. The Yanks outspend the SAWX by 69%. The SAWX outspend the Orioles by 67%. You outspend the Jays and the Devil Rays by well over 100%. I eagerly await your next rationalization...

Pudge - "Winning percentage actually means jack squat, between divisions, except in the abomination known as the Wild Card" - Ahem. The WIld Card is the only FRIGGIN' reason you chowdah-heads are defending World Champs! Please put down the crack pipe, son.

I thought last year didn't mean anything?

What's more, just like you can't compare two teams in two different divisions, you also can't compare a season with a Wild Card to one without. Who's to say we might not have won a few more games if there were no Wild Card?

I also hate interleague play, but without interleague play, all other things being equal, the Yankees would have won the division by only two games instead of three. So what? You work with what you've got, and you can't go back and say "if this had happened," because it didn't.

Just because the Yankees couldn't do jack squat when they won the very first Wild Card (and the Sox won the division), doesn't mean you have to bitter about it now.

The fact is that you can't reasonably compare the records of two teams who have drastically different schedules. It makes no sense to declare otherwise. If that means that there should be a short round-robin playoff for the second team in each division, so be it.

Dwight - "you can't play the "arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics" card if you're going to keep on running. And no you didn't expressly say that, and yes I'm going out on a limb"

That's not the card I was playing 'dude'. And yes you went out on a limb and yes it just snapped right out from under you. I have never had a problem admiting to arguing on the internet. And, as you can see here today, I have no problem 'diving right in'. One MFYankee fan against an entire 'nation'. Doesn't smell like insecurity to me.

And as for juicy curveballs - Even Bellhorn could smack the shit you've been hangin' out there today...

BigBri: I find it hilarious that on your site, you have a post "SAWX Are Struggling," and then went 13-4, during which time you didn't post at all. Musta been a rough time for you, huh?

Since your post, Manny has been on a tear, there's been no trouble between Millar and Olerud, Foulke has given up only two ER (both in one game) in 8 games and 8.2 IP, the Sox have doubled their lead on the Yankees and taken first place ...

Any chance you can post more about how the SAWX are struggling? It did so much good the last time.

Thank for posting the video Pudge! That was great! I'd love to get a copy of it on a dvd if you're able... email me at YankeesSuckAssForever@yahoo.com if you can. Thanks!

OK, many posts ago (actually it was less than 4 hours ago) were the answers to my questions. I thank you HB for your knowledge of The Randoms. Ah yes, another old punk rock fan such as myself.
And thank you Bob for reminding me of that great and appropriate Fear song. Now I have 4 anti-NY songs I can burn on a "Slappy McBlueLips Greatest Hits" CD:

FEAR: New York's Alright If You Like Saxaphones
SEX PISTOLS: New York
THE RANDOMS: Let's Get Rid of New York
THE MOLECULES: Fuck New York

Geez, why couldn't Cornrow-yo have done THOSE songs instead of the "sensitive-grunge" pap on (ugh) Covering The Bases? According to Amazon.com, customers who viewed that CD also viewed Asia, Michael Jackson, Bob Mould and Violent Femmes. (?!?)

If you want some REAL laughs, check out what other customers recommended instead or in addition to Bernie Williams' CD from two years ago: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00009VGX9/ref=pd_sbs_m_3/103-7153167-4803062?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

scott12xu, at risk of overhyping myself, I suggest you add "Johnny Got Suspended" from http://pudge.net/music/, a punk-ish cover of the classic Zambonis song. You won't regret it.

o/~ My friend Johhny got suspended for wearing a Yankees Suck t-shirt ... o/~

Bri, I'm not suggesting that the Red Sox aren't outspending Baltimore/Toronto/TB by a wide margin, I'm suggesting that they would be at a tremendous disadvantage with regards to finishing with a better record then the Yankees and winning the division if they didn't.

You are correct in stating that the ultimate goal is winning the world series. Let me connect the dots between my point and that goal for you. In order to win the world series, you first have to get into the playoffs. In order to get into the playoffs, you have to either win your division outright or win the wild card. In the regular season, the teams with more talent generally finish higher then teams with less talent. If the other teams in your division are spending to bolster the amount of talent they have, you had better spend too or run the risk of not having the same depth to deal with the injuries/slumps/etc that inevitably happen during the regular season.

In the playoffs anything can happen, as last year's ALCS proved in most conclusive fashion. You don't start off building your team to win a 7 game series. You start off building your team to win in the regular season. If you can't do that, you won't be playing any 7 game series. Once you think you can do that, then you start tweaking your roster so you can win in the playoffs too.

Your point was the Nats and the White Sox were doing better from a wins/$ perspective. That metric is not really relevant. What matters is making the playoffs and giving yourself a shot at a world championship. In order to do that, you have to try to win your division.

Steinbrenner working out just makes me think of Vince McMahon, which is probably not the image the Boss wants.

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