« Spell it: O-R-T-I-Z | Main | Hey, at least it wasn't a shutout »

1, 4, 8, 9, 27 and 26?

Bill:
Would have preferred a sweep, but taking 2 of 3 from the AL West leading Angels feels good for shua.

 

Mike:
The bullpen yesterday, for the first time this yeah, reminded me of last season's comfort level. Call to the pen with a lead? Lights out.

 

Bill:
Absolutely. I'd totally forgotten what that feels like.

 


Bill:
That Ray Millah quote gets Boggsie exactly: "He'd get to two strikes and he'd start fouling off pitch after pitch. He looked like a guy sorting through the mail looking for a check."

 

Mike:
I was just a kid when Boggs was in his prime with the Sox, but I always remembah my old man being critical, saying he was "selfish" and "only good for singles."

 

Bill:
Yeah, he wasn't universally loved that's for certain, rare that a Red Sox playah is after all, but if Boggsie were to come up in today's OBP obsessed era, he'd be lauded … numbah 26 was way ahead of his time.

 

Comments

For those of you too young to remember - the oft-repeated comment about Boggs was that after getting a hit, he would mentally compute his batting average while running to first base.

I didn't watch yesterday's victory--but, I'm stoked that they took that one behind quality bullpen work.

'Cause Saturday's collective bullpen performance was possibly the most frustrating baseball experience I've endured (I know: "Waah!") with this group of Sox players. Man, I was pissed...I was fucking ranting.

You know, I didn't care about how Boggs got on base...as long he reached, it was all good.

In my early teens, I recalled Rod Carew exclusively hitting singles all of the time, so there was a precedent. Carew's bat would be almost parallel to the ground--he got it around quickly, but the ball would always end up in the OF grass.

But, now my lingering image of Boggs is of him riding a NYPD horse around the Toilet, so I'm not enthusiastic about any Red Sox honors directed towards him...have to think about it.

Delta Force!!!

I was a big Boggsie fan from the start, because I appreciated what he did well and ignored all the wise-ass conventional wisdom types in the media who slammed him as a stats-obsessed singles hitter. But he certainly was a strange guy who gave us lots of cringe inducing moments even before getting on that horse in the Toilet:

Margo Adams
The Baba Wawa special: "I'm addicted to sex!"
Falling out of that car his wife was driving in spring training
The whole chicken thing
And, post-retirement, those Hair Club ads

But the biggest reason that I really don't want his # retired: if they do it, then that means you KNOW they'll retire Fat Rog's #21 in a few years too. I'm pissed that the equipment manager hasn't issued 21 in nine years; if I were running that clubhouse I'd always give it to the worst pitcher on the roster as a sign of disrespect for Duh Roc-ket.

I've always wondered how they deal with numbers of guy's that have moved on, especially the guys who probably won't ever get their numbers retired at Fenway but who were really important to the franchise.

I'm thinking specifically about Mo Vaughn's #42 and Nomar's #5.

You know what's just as bad, according to Red Sox Hall of Fame election criteria, Clemens gets inducted due to his 3+ years of Sox service and his virtual lock to go into Cooperstown.

But I'm ok with Waaaaaaaaaaade getting his number retired. That image of him virtually in tears at the end of the '86 series was always gut-wrenching for me, no matter how weird he was or who he ended up playing for.

In my book, 14 comes before 26. I know the "rule" regarding only HOFers numbers being retired, but Jim Rice is nothing if not a Red Sox. The same can't be said for the Chicken Man -or- Rocket.

Well, #42 will never be issued again because it's been retired by all teams in honor of Jackie Robinson. As for #5, it's early, but I would guess they don't issue it again for a very long time...that seems to be the unofficial way of handling these situations since Duh Rocket left. Before that, they never gave a second thought to reissuing #'s of greats like Jimmy Foxx...although come to think of it, I don't remember anyone wearing #14 for the last 15 years.

Oh, right, I forgot about the Robinson tribute.

Of the current roster of Red Sox and the numbers they wear, which, if any, do you think would be "reserved" if the player were to move on or retire?

Trot's #7?
Varitek's #33?
Schilling's #38?

How bout Wake's #49?

BTW, I agree with TallySoxFan. If they must begin making exceptions to policy, I would rather see it done for #14 before #26 or possibly #21.
Just to clarify- I think it would be a nice gesture to "reserve" Wakefield's #49 for awhile after he retires. I don't necessarily advocate the team retiring his #

Enough with the Rocket bashing! The Rocket's lasting contribution to the Sox is that he taught them the value of a dominant pitcher. Yes, there were other pitchers that occasionally shined in Boston, but until Clemens showed up, pitching was an afterthought when putting a team together. With Clemens, there was never the risk of a 10 or 12 game losing streak because there was at least one pitcher on the team that could quickly end any losing streak. That said, I like to recall Clemens grousing about having to carry his luggage through the airport (I think it was just carry-on luggage, not the full set). Fans groused, and Kevin McHale said, 'yeah, well that's why they call him 'Rocket Man' not 'Rocket Scientist'.

When are they gonna get around to retiring Glenn Hoffman's numbah already? Geez.

Hang on! Nobody's going anywhere until we retire Pesky's #6.

The only current number I think is a lock for the RF facade is 33. If 34 can keep it up for a few more years, he might wind up there too.

Good point, Yazbread. The early 80's Sox was a moribund franchise, going nowhere. As much as anyone, Clemens was responsible for the turnaround. The real pity is, that if it weren't for those 4 years that Clemens didn't pitch up to par, he would have 340+ going into this year, and be approaching the Spahn/Mathewson/Alexander stratosphere. Still, if his arm fell off tomorrow, he's obviously a lock for the HOF

This whole Boggs thing bears out the diff between Boston and NY. NY loves to win..period. Boston loves to love its players, and when they take someone to their heart, he is golden forever. A perfect point is Terry O'Reilly, a player who by his own admission was limited talent-wise, but who has his # retired among the pantheon of Bruins greats.

I was at the game yesterday, and another rousing round for Cabrera, who was here for only 3 months, but who made that connection to the fans and the city. Boggs, as great as he was, never engendered that type of genuine admiration, with me at least. Maybe it was the 3rd person self references, the OCD routine...I don't know. I had respect for his talents, but the Wade Boggs personna left me cold.

I only hope the Sox keep their high standards before retiring a number, and not become the Whalers, retiring Johnny McKenzie's #19 after 2 seasons in Hartford at the tail end of his career. I do think that before he goes to meet Ted, Pesky's #6 should be retired. 60+ years in the organization, HOF or not merits it.


two comments, very nice round of
applause for O-Cab, And that was
fuckin crazy that Squiggy is a
major league scout for the Seattle
Mariners. good for him...

GG,

So....did she go for it or what?

I like the idea I saw from someone about #6. Put it on the pole.

Don't officially retire it, because it's still an active number, used by the foul pole.

Far more memorable than just sticking a number up on the roof.

Not sure #33 is going into the Hall of Fame. Like #38 he's a lock for the Hall of the Very Good, but a little short of the HOF.

Oh, and we'll be looking for space for #45 soon enough.

SS67: Yes she did. An excellent day all around....perfect weather at the park, a great game...(K-horn's 2 Ks and slow to cover 2nd didn;t even bother me), and a very nice ride back to Cow Hampshire.

"In my book, 14 comes before 26. I know the "rule" regarding only HOFers numbers being retired, but Jim Rice is nothing if not a Red Sox. The same can't be said for the Chicken Man -or- Rocket."

*Pounds head on desk*

I went to the Sox game Friday, and the cheer for OC upon his first at-bat produced chills. Then, when it died down, without planning it, four people in my section including myself said, "OK, now strike his @ss out!" in unison to Wells.

Also, I found that chanting "Mango Salsa!" *clap clap clapclapclap* is a fun thing to do when Papi's approaching the plate.

I remember Boggsie in Pawtucket. He and Cal Ripkin played in the longest game ever between the Pawsox and the Rochester Redwings. Debbie Boggs was the editor of the Pawsox Wives cookbook.

He got hit after hit after hit. One knock on him was the "singles hitter" label, but he led the league in doubles several times, which made him a good leadoff hitter despite his lack of speed. No need to steal second if you just hit a double.

But the low point for me was the strikeout against Eckersley with the bases loaded in the playoffs, I think it was in '88. Never had much use for him after he put on pinstripes. They should definitely honor him in Pawtucket, but I don't know about retiring his number at Fenway. Maybe Tampa Bay...

I love Wade Boggs, as a player, as a member of the Sox. But he left the Sox to go to the Yankees. His number should never be retired.

Same for Clemens. Same for Fisk. And same for Ray Bourque.

I love no player in any sport as much as I love Ray Bourque. Unconditionally. But what he did was just wrong, and I would not favor retiring his number. Sorry.

Orr gets a pass because he only left because his (later incarcerated) agent lied to him and said Boston didn't want him there.

But I second the call for Rice. Screw the HOF crap. We didn't care if the UN said it was OK to invade Iraq, why the hell should we care if some New York sportswriters think Jim Ed doesn't deserve to be in the Hall? Don't let those foreign bastards determine what we is in our best interests.

As to virtual retirements, Tek (given his current captaincy) and Wakes have a lock on those, if anyone does. Nixon maybe too, we'll see.

I love Schilling, but come on, retiring his number -- virtually or otherwise -- is as pathetic as what the Avs did with Bourque when he retired.

How can you get on Bourque after the zillions of years he put in for the B's? The team did him a favor.
Its not like he dogged it like Fatass Scumbag Clemens and then miraculously got in Cy Young shape the following year. They should give his number to Cla... or maybe a batboy.
Even with the NYY horse thing, Boggs deserves it. And even though Rice doesnt deserve the Hall, Id like to see #14 retired as well as Pesky, Conigliaro and yes, even Schilling's numbers. There's a flag out at center field that doesnt get hung without #38.

Hey Ryan,

I was at that Friday game too, and I heard you yell that - funny shit. I felt the same way.

no question about it, rice before boggs. boggs was one of the first sellouts to go to manhatten, let him go on the wall out in memorial park.like lee says, hes a cheap whore on 42 street looking for a ring. i will see him on the horse forever, not in a sox uniform, and not in right field with teddy ballgame.

Well, pawsoxpop, not that Tampa is anything like Hartford... Boggs' number and jersey are posted nicely in right field at Crap-a-cana Field, just under the big squirting orange. Oh, the humanity.

If Boggs' number doesn't belong up there, better take down Cronin's and Doerr's while we're at it. I guess the question comes down to "what specifically is the criteria?" If it is intended to reward those that performed best while with the Red Sox, then Boggs ought to have his own Larry Bird style "night". He was that good. If we are going to retire numbers based upon who made fans feel good inside, then Rice and whole slew of others go before Boggs. I think I like the former policy better with some latitude for exterior factors like popularity while he was playing, etc.

"If they must begin making exceptions to policy, I would rather see it done for #14 before #26 or possibly #21," Oki-na-chi-chi
Except retiring 26 wouldn't be an exception to policy. This is the official Red Sox policy for retiring numbers:
• Election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame
• At least 10 years played with the Red Sox
As you can see they took out the part about ending your career with the team. You can check it yourself at http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/history/retired_numbers.jsp

"But I second the call for Rice. Screw the HOF crap. We didn't care if the UN said it was OK to invade Iraq, why the hell should we care if some New York sportswriters think Jim Ed doesn't deserve to be in the Hall? Don't let those foreign bastards determine what we is in our best interests," Pudge.
Very interesting. Let me get this straight. You wouldn't retire Fisk's number, the person you got your nickname from, even though he went through almost the same thing Orr did. But oh by the way, we can retire Orr's number because he was supposedly screwed. Nice double standard, very subjective.

That's the problem a lot of you are having with this debate. There's a lot of double standards in who you'd honor, and too much is based not on true greatness, but how you feel. Retiring numbers is only for the best of the best. Not the top of the very good, not the guy's that got down on their knees and made us feel warm and fuzzy, not those that had longevity, and not some surly slugger that declined rapidly while disrespecting managers. That's why the Hall of Fame criteria is good. It's a nationwide panel recognizing a member of the team as reaching the best of the best. Could Rice make it based on some other names in the Hall, sure. But the fact that there's such a debate about him shows that he probably doesn't reach the level of best of the best. And the second we retire the numbers of childhood heroes and those that capitulated to the fans more than they produced on the field we might as well not retire any more numbers, or retire them all, because it will be an empty honor.

I would guess that except for the Stadium pinstripe horse show, most folks (myself included) wouldn't have such heartburn over Boggs - I agree that his time at Fenway deserves recognition.

A bigger problem for me is that there are individuals, such as our man Jim Ed or Johnny Pesky, who may not make the mythic Sox front office criteria for inclusion but obviously gave (and in Pesky's case, continue to give) more to the Red Sox than others who moved on. I hate to think the Sox management team is waiting for the baseball writers to chip-in before honoring those who are deserving from a Sox perspective. Just as they came off the "retired as a Red Sox" criteria for Fisk, hopefully they will come off the HOF criteria before Jim Ed goes to the Old-Timers committee and Pesky is no longer with us. Likewise, HOF membership and 10 years of service should not automatically slide your old number up on there next to Bobby, Ted, and Yaz. If you do not want to go into Cooperstown wearing a Red Sox hat, why should it be?

The HOF should be a seperate honor than the retired number. In my book, the retired number should be for service to the HOME TEAM, not personal performance as compared to everyone else

Kellen: Fisk didn't go through what Orr did. His eyes were wide open when he left. Orr only left because he was deceived by his agent into leaving. Even you should be able to see the difference. Although I do have a lot more sympathy for Fisk's position than for Clemens or Boggs.

Bourque's position is not as bad as Clemens in some ways, but worse in others. He was the captain of the team, and in the middle of the season, he told *his* team "I want to go somewhere else." Sorry, but you can't spin that in a positive light. You don't get much worse than that, although at least he was not dishonest about it like Parcells and Curtis Martin.

"There's a lot of double standards in who you'd honor, and too much is based not on true greatness, but how you feel."

Are you daft? I already said Bourque is my favorite player in any sport, and as you noted, my nickname (since childhood) comes from Fisk. Obviously, if this were about how I felt, I would want their numbers retired. But it's not. There's nothing remotely similar to a double standard here. I'm applying very clear standards.

Of course there is necessarily some subjectivity involved, but in my view, choosing to leave the team is an objective measurement that should be employed. I've thought so since long before Bourque chose to leave the Bruins, and I won't change that view just because I love Bourque.

And saying we should defer to the HOF is retarded. Just stupid. Of course we should reserve it for the best of the best, but the question is who decides who is in that category? I'm simply saying it should not be the sportswriters from around the country, it should be the Bostonians: the Sox organization, writers, fans, etc. That's a no-brainer (which means, again, even you should be able to figure it out).

You're saying it's retarded to defer to the Hall, yet apparently your criteria for having a number retired is, "well I liked him and he stayed his whole career." I'll take inclusion in the Hall of Fame as opposed to your criteria. Also, how can you say you don't have a double standard when you're saying it's an honor for only the best of the best, but you'd exclude one of the top 5 catchers to ever play the game and one of the better defenseman ever? Bourque and Fisk aren't the best of the best because they didn't play their whole career in Boston? But then you'd add people who aren't considered the best of the best in their sport like Pesky and Rice? Just because we love them doesn't mean they deserve the ultimate honor the franchise can give. They're already in the Red Sox Hall of Fame.

Kellen: 'You're saying it's retarded to defer to the Hall, yet apparently your criteria for having a number retired is, "well I liked him and he stayed his whole career." I'll take inclusion in the Hall of Fame as opposed to your criteria.'

I admire your ability to beat the hell out of straw men. I never said it should be that I liked him, and I never said he had to stay here his whole career. Maybe you need to learn to read ... ?

But this is coming from the same person who previously said I had a double-standard for players I like, despite my criteria excluding people I like ... so I shall have to conclude that yes, you can't read, or can't think.

'Also, how can you say you don't have a double standard when you're saying it's an honor for only the best of the best, but you'd exclude one of the top 5 catchers to ever play the game and one of the better defenseman ever?'

Uh ... what? "How can you say the sky is blue when my milk is white?" Do you not understand that the evidence you provide has nothing to do with whether the standard is a double standard or not?

Obviously, you don't.

It would be a double standard if I had a different standard for some people than others. But the same standard is applied to all: if you leave Boston by your own volition, you don't meet the standard, no matter how good you are. Orr is excepted because in my opinion, being deceived, he did not leave of his own volition.

'But then you'd add people who aren't considered the best of the best in their sport like Pesky and Rice?'

No. I would not retire Pesky's number, and never hinted I would. I would retire Rice's number, because I do think he is best of the best. I think people who claim he isn't have their heads up their collective ass.

Career .300 hitter, almost 400 HRs, 2500 hits, over .500 slugging, averaged over 100 RBI per year. Sure, he's no Ted Williams, but then, no one is. But his batting stats do compare favorably to Boggs (not as good avg or OBP, better power and run production) and Yaz (better power AND avg).

"But his batting stats do compare favorably to Boggs (not as good avg or OBP, better power and run production) and Yaz (better power AND avg)."

Better run production than Boggs? Interesting. I guess you could make that case if not for, you know, out-making. 'Cuz Rice did a ton of that.

Career Runs Created Per 27 Outs While w/ Sox:

Boggs: 7.65
Rice: 6.33

Also, Boggs' OBP advantage is more valuable than Rice's slug advantage. Just consider it logically. A 1.000 team-OBP in an inning means you score ad infinitum. A 1.000 team-SLG in an inning could potentially mean a 1-0 lead with a solo shot and 3 K's.

So Boggs was a better offensive asset than Rice, and by a reasonably comfortable margin.

When you factor in that Boggs played a position at which offensive excellence is much harder to come by than in left field, the debate starts to really get out of hand.

Career WARP3 w/Sox (Wins Above Replacement Player):

Boggs (11+ seasons): 105.9
Rice (15+ seasons): 89.7

It's just not even close.

Boggs should not be included until Captain Jim Ed rice is included . If I can get that picture of that whore riding around Yankee stadium on thew horses ass out of my mind, and I won't, I may not think about the tramp in southern Cal. that helped break up the '86 team, let's think about what Bruce Hurst said about him. LET'S KEEP HIM OUT.

Boggs clemens and anyone else like that should never have their numbers retired by the red sox for one simple fact they sold out, period. there is no other explaination for it they were so hungry for a title for themselves not the team they sold out why not go somewhere else and try to win just not there when you go to the yankees you sell out cause you think theyll win.

as for rice he is a great ballplayer but a horrible human being i know this from much interaction with him. Ted yaz never sold out even though they never won here they didnt give up and go to the yanks to ensure their title they loved boston.

pesky is a lifer and should be the next up there as well as eck. then maybe rice if he gets into the hall only if he does though!

after that thats all folks for a long time un til pedro goes in hed be the next one up there for sure

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